Comments on The Urban Country Bicycle Blog: Democracy Is Good, But…

"If we installed sidewalks using our "de...

2012-01-08T00:54:28.333-05:00

"If we installed sidewalks using our "democratic" process, we would see the same thing happen - some areas would have them, and they would be ripped out in other areas."

That actually happens, although it is more common for some areas to decide not to install them in the first place and those who wish them installed face massive resistance.

They are not standard, the decision has to be made and I know entire villages that have decided to go without.

It seems to me that some of the comments highlight...

2012-01-08T00:42:08.525-05:00

It seems to me that some of the comments highlight the very reason North America (I'd say the U.S. most specifically since we don't think Canada has anything to teach us either) is so reluctant to learn from other cultures. Discussion devolves from consideration of increasing alternative transport infrastructure to the completely unrelated question of censorship in China. If we really want to go in that direction, my experience as a government worker is that professional staff (including transportation and community planners) are censored pretty routinely when data and facts go undiscussed or dismissed in favor of the unsubstantiated opinions/preferences of "key stakerholders" who have a financial or electoral investment in the outcome of policy decisions.

Is it really that horrible to consider that another country, perhaps a long time foe, might have a good idea once in a while? Since I've never heard anyone sigh "I just wish I could spend more time on the LA Freeway!" or "My, the traffic conjestion in Atlanta is just delightful; more time to admire at the Big Chicken!" why waste time debating whether or not China (or Denmark) has it all over us on transportation infrastructure?

Ian, you say it yourself: democracy serves people ...

2012-01-08T00:21:06.508-05:00

Ian, you say it yourself: democracy serves people with cars very well. Those without cars, not so much. And a lot of people increasingly find car ownership too financially burdensome to say they are being served well. For many others, it is simply not an option. I'm saying this as a middle class person, with a job and a car. What would I have to sacrifice in terms of freedom and democracy if I suddenly had to make a car payment - or even pay for a major car repair? For me, it would like be medication and much needed dental care. Further, what do the real majority have to sacrifice when we choose to fund auto-only infrastructure (which never truly gets paid for when you consider the cost of on-going maintenance for which the tax payer is forever on the hook) at the expense of mass transit, bicycling and pedestrian infrastructure?

Agreed. We still have massive new development wit...

2012-01-08T00:07:45.327-05:00

Agreed. We still have massive new development with new roads connecting new commerical to new residential neighborhoods. The roads are designed to acommodate a large amount of cars going at a high rate of speed. Sidewalks are very narrow and often start and stop without really connecting destinations in such a way as to encourage walking, even with a residential development is half a block away. And forget about bike lanes. Also an after thought that is not incorporated in the overall infrastructure in a meaningful way.

A perfect example in the US is Norton Commons in Louisville, KY. A really lovely, mixed-use, traditional neighborhood development that continues to expand in what was once farm land at the edge of the county. The development mimics the traditional old neighborhoods of 100 years ago and should ideally promote biking and walking - and it does WITHIN THE DEVELOPMENT ONLY!. NC is surrounded by other residential and commerical developments (all relatively new) that are unconnected by almost nothing but wide roads for fast traffic. You can't walk to the high-end lifestyle center nearby, which does include sidewalks, because there are no sidewalk connecting NC to the life style center. And of course, no bike lanes. Public transportation doesn't visit Norton Commons either - low paid housekeepers, cooks and home healthcare aids serving the wealthy residents just have to drive their own unreliable autos or walk in the road,from the neares bus stop (probably a mile a way) to the majority that drive cars but we cater to the those with the most money (aka "key stakeholders").

"We can't just undo the suburbs - so that...

2012-01-07T17:53:59.985-05:00

"We can't just undo the suburbs - so that means, for now, we can't get of rid of cars."

When I was born most of the motor infrastructure you see around you did not exist. The first suburb, in the modern conception of such, was brand spanking new. When I was in college I first started warning people that the "Sleeping Dragon" was stirring in its sleep. It took another 10 years for it to awaken. Just look at it now.

When my mother was born there was not a single motorway in the entire world. She's still young enough to ride her one speed uphill three miles to get her groceries.

We "just did" the suburbs in only a handful of decades. We can undo them even faster if we've a mind to, as undoing takes rather less work.

It takes no more than 20 years to transform an entire culture beyond the recognition of those who knew it before. There are those alive today, both in the Americas and in China, who have watched it happen; multiple times.

All that is needed is the cultural decision.

I've got to get my ass to the Netherlands! Ch...

2012-01-07T13:31:45.190-05:00

I've got to get my ass to the Netherlands!

Cheers and good luck in your travels!

Good stuff in LA? Really? If you mean bike lanes i...

2012-01-06T22:39:16.344-05:00

Good stuff in LA? Really? If you mean bike lanes in door zones that end for no apparent reason. Or a bunch of sharrows painted on busy, dangerous streets, then I guess "good" stuff is happening in LA.

Thanks Agustin. Most of the traffic signs I've...

2012-01-06T18:55:18.130-05:00

Thanks Agustin. Most of the traffic signs I've seen here resemble that of the Netherlands. I suspect there is some sort of consulting/collaboration between China and Europe in this respect. Thank goodness the Chinese didn't look to North America for advice.

On a related note, my wife's father works in the transportation planning department here in China. I wish I could talk to him about it, but I still need to learn to speak the language... :)

PS: I also covered bike infrastructure in the city...

2012-01-06T18:20:39.450-05:00

PS: I also covered bike infrastructure in the city in a previous article in 2010: http://www.theurbancountry.com/2010/11/complete-streets-in-china.html

The bike lanes in the photos in that article are well used because those photos were taken in the city. The photos in this article would be considered the suburbs (roughly 7km from the city centre).

As you can see from the 2010 article however, most people use electric scooters here rather than pedalling. A different topic for a different article ;)

Hi Ian, I agree that we can't undo the suburbs...

2012-01-06T18:13:20.731-05:00

Hi Ian, I agree that we can't undo the suburbs. My suggestion is that instead of allocating 99% of the space to motor vehicles, we allocate some space for bicycles just like we put sidewalks in the suburbs. We still need to accommodate motor vehicles no doubt, but we can be a bit smarter about it by providing some alternatives.

I agree that positive change is happening in North America, but the quality is lacking and the resistance to it is strong. We don't have resistance to sidewalks because they are part of standard planning practices. If we installed sidewalks using our "democratic" process, we would see the same thing happen - some areas would have them, and they would be ripped out in other areas.

The first three photos in the article were taken in a brand new development that is largely under construction, so there isn't a lot of traffic here yet (be it cars or scooters or bicycles). The wall in the second photo exists because that entire area is under construction and closed to the public. When the construction is nearing completion, the wall will be taken down.

The reason I posted photos taken in the new development is because I wanted to highlight that bike infrastructure is built by default over here (even in an area that is largely being developed for the wealthy).

I also could have mentioned that in this area there is also a waterfront recreational path on this same road. The government could have decided that since there's a recreational trail there is no need for on-street bicycle infrastructure. But they look at two wheel transportation as a standard mode of transportation that should be accommodate even if there is a recreational trail nearby. This is far different from the view that our planners largely have in North America that bicycles should be treated as recreational only.

Interesting to see infrastructure somewhere other ...

2012-01-06T14:53:58.676-05:00

Interesting to see infrastructure somewhere other than the Netherlands and Denmark!! Where I live, I think it's part of a new law that any new roads need to have bike lanes, and any road that's being repaved needs to be able to accommodate bikes as well. It's a slow process getting everything changed over though. In the meantime, I get around on my folding bike which lets me ride when I can and when it's safe, but I can take the bus through the areas that don't have bike lanes yet.

James, thanks for this post. I was recently in Ch...

2012-01-06T11:39:32.873-05:00

James, thanks for this post.

I was recently in China (Shanghai) and apart from the cool bike infrastructure you mention, what struck me is that they seem to have figured out wayfinding a lot better than us in Canada.

I was very impressed at how they manage to convey required traffic patterns (for all modes of transportation) with much less sign clutter than us.

I think that helps everyone get around more easily and with less confusion (ergo less nervousness and anxiety, ergo more peace).

I don't want to write an essay here, so I'...

2012-01-06T11:11:06.615-05:00

I don't want to write an essay here, so I'm going to try and keep it short.

I agree and disagree with you at the same time.

Cultural hegemony is a tricky thing to navigate, and there are upsides and downsides to cars. We can't just undo the suburbs - so that means, for now, we can't get of rid of cars. "Democracy", as you put it, is serving people with cars fairly well for the most part; despite obvious problems. I find it very interesting that we don't think of road network and automobile traffic as mass transit, because it is mass transit. But you're right, we need more bike infrastructure and mass transit.

There are some places in The Staes that have solid bike infrastructure. New York and LA are installing bike lanes etc (they're doing some good stuff in LA right now), and more well known places like Portland, San Francisco, Minneapolis, etc. etc. are all doing well too. And in in Toronto, Bike lanes are one of the major sites of civic debate. Things are going backwards right now, its true, but things are happening. It's not that bad.

I also suspect there are more complicated social/class/economic reasons for bikes lanes in China. But I don't want to speculate about those because I don't know. And no trumpets? That would be a very somber critical mass. And does your second picture have a few lanes leading into a wall? Also, why isn't there any traffic on the roads in your pictures?

I'm tempted to make a grand statement about the goodness of democracy, but I wont, instead I will say that it is slow and cumbersome, and a generally a good thing.

Indeed. Just pointing out the difference between &...

2012-01-06T10:34:56.632-05:00

Indeed. Just pointing out the difference between "democracy" and "representation" and how they (should) work in theory.

Ideally, it should work the way I put it. In reali...

2012-01-06T10:33:36.794-05:00

Ideally, it should work the way I put it. In reality it doesn't for different reasons. I wouldn't get too excited about your assertion about the "one party" that is trying to put minorities down. Not so long ago it was the "other party" doing the same thing. Though if you look deeper, it's people from "both parties" engaging in this activity, of putting other people "in their place". It's not really a black and white issue (pun intended) when it comes to politics and party affiliations.

Speaking as someone who grew up in the South, I wo...

2012-01-06T09:58:26.520-05:00

Speaking as someone who grew up in the South, I wouldn't get too excited about the ability of a representative Democracy or Republic to protect minority rights. Even now, we have one party working on creative ways to disenfranchise a people (poor, black) that they think are less likely to vote for them. Just by accidents of history, electoral timing, and silly Supreme Court decisions, some groups of people wield disproportionate influence in this country. There's popular stuff (single-payer health care, tax increase on the wealthiest) that also is probably good (based on statistics from other countries, based on historical economic performance and a study of the Laffer curve) does not get passed because a few small, powerful minorities do not want it.

Octavian & David, nowhere did I say it that th...

2012-01-06T09:00:22.934-05:00

Octavian & David, nowhere did I say it that the Chinese are uniformly the "good guys" just because they have good bike infrastructure. This post wasn't intended to cover internet censorship, free speech, or human rights in general. As someone who is currently living in China and unable to access many of the websites I frequent, I think I am in a good position to see the many negative sides of China.

This post however is specifically discussing transportation planning & road design and some of the good decisions the Chinese have made that are inherently prohibited in North America due to our car culture & elected representatives.

I think you're grasping at straws James. Firs...

2012-01-06T08:47:33.619-05:00

I think you're grasping at straws James.
First of all, Canada and the US (North America as you so put it) are not democracies in the true sense of the word. Canada's government is a representative democracy, while the US's is a representative republic, the key word there being representative. A true democracy would work in the way you described, but the last true democracy was Greece back in the olden days.

A true democracy is plagued by the follies you mentioned, but when you toss in representation, the theory is that all people have equal rights despite what the majority want. For instance. in the case of a true democracy, a majority of the population can vote that it's ok to discriminate against a race. In a representative democracy the vote may take place, but the rights of that particular race are not nullified because they have equal rights despite what the majority think.

The best example of this is a famous saying attributed to Benjamin Franklin, though it probably wasn't him who said it: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

In practice, and related to transportation, the systems here work the way you described, unfortunately. There are other systems that should also be fixed, but let's take it one step at a time.

PS I'll also have to agree with David's comment in that China has a very poor track record when it comes to pollution and human rights. To say they're good guys because they built some bike lanes is ridiculous.

Not sure this is uniformly true -- Beijing was fam...

2012-01-06T08:07:35.104-05:00

Not sure this is uniformly true -- Beijing was famously polluted before the 2008 Olympics, and there's also news of gigantic traffic jams from time to time. On the other hand, a lot of that is supposed to come from motor scooters, and those are increasingly restricted in favor of electric scooters.

What we've got is a dictatorship that is in this instance, benevolent. It hasn't always been (T Square?), nor is it guaranteed to be in so in all cases.

Not sure how you're going to be able to edit/approve this from China, either, at least not for long as soon as more critical comments show up.